<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">If we were writing code, and not e-mail, the clarification between voting/making a statement in show or not of support would matter.<div><br></div><div>I agree that Jon is correct regarding the process of rough consensus and not votes. That said, rough consensus still requires evaluating who is saying what, and why. In my separate e-mail response to Paul, I shared an example list of the top cryptographer PhDs who do not support publication and a list of those that do, which primarily tends to lean towards intelligence and signals agency members.</div><div><br></div><div>To be clear, the IETF states the term “adopt” does not mean adopt [1] in the dictionary sense. I don’t think they are “bullshitting.”</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Andrew</div><div><div><br></div><div>[1] RFC 7221, Section 2.2: https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc7221.html</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jul 7, 2026, at 7:56 PM, Steven M. Bellovin <smb@cs.columbia.edu> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta charset="UTF-8"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">On 7 Jul 2026, at 18:34, Jon Callas wrote:</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jul 3, 2026, at 10:26, Peter Fairbrother <peter@tsto.co.uk> wrote:<br><br>I think the title says it all - but why should the NSA be allowed to vote? Not that a vote means much here.<br></blockquote><br><br>The NSA does not vote. Anyone who says they are doesn't understand the IETF. The IETF operates by "rough consensus" and at times they measure the consensus in a room with the charming mechanism of humming (not singing). Thus, someone will ask for people to hum if they approve of an option. The idea behind this is that it permits a check where someone with a lot of lung power does not overpower everyone else.<br><br>Also, the IETF is a collection of individuals, rather than organizations. Yes, yes, yes. I get what you're about to say. I've rolled my eyes hard enough to hurt them, too, on occasions. However, that's a totally different discussion. It's the way they do things, and other standards bodies operate by votes and so on. (Some organizations vote, but they vote by country, as well, where e.g. the US would get a single vote that encompasses all US companies, nonprofits, etc. and this is an even further digression.)<br><br>The bottom line is that the statement "the NSA is voting in IETF elections" is not even wrong. A person saying this is either ignorant of the ways of the IETF, or is bullshitting.<br><br>Yes, there are people whose opinions are aligned with the NSA, BSI, GCHQ, and more. There always have been. They were all over in the grand crypto wars of the nineties, and mechanisms like humming and the concept of rough consensus are there precisely so that one interest with power or money behind it doesn't dominate. They're imperfect mechanisms, and yet not at all bad. Let's face it, if there were an ideal way to handle these things, we'd all just do it.<br><br></blockquote><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">Former Security Area Director and WG chair here: Jon is 100% right on IETF process.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;"> --Steve Bellovin,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a href="https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">_______________________________________________</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">The cryptography mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><a href="mailto:cryptography@metzdowd.com" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">cryptography@metzdowd.com</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><a href="https://www.metzdowd.com/mailman/listinfo/cryptography" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">https://www.metzdowd.com/mailman/listinfo/cryptography</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>